Narcissist vs. Psychopath

Merely Sources of Supply

Apr 27, 2006

We all heard the terms "psychopath" or "sociopath". It is hard to distinguish narcissists from psychopaths.

We all heard the terms "psychopath" or "sociopath". These are the old names for a patient with the Antisocial Personality Disorder (AsPD). It is hard to distinguish narcissists from psychopaths. The latter may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of the former. Indeed, the DSM V Committee is considering to abolish this distinction altogether.

Still, there are some important nuances setting the two disorders apart:

As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.

Psychopaths, like narcissists, lack empathy but many of them are also sadistic: they take pleasure in inflicting pain on their victims or in deceiving them. They even find it funny!

Psychopaths are far less able to form interpersonal relationships, even the twisted and tragic relationships that are the staple of the narcissist

Both the psychopath and the narcissist disregard society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties. But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme and is likely to be a scheming, calculated, ruthless, and callous career criminal. Psychopaths are deliberately and gleefully evil while narcissists are absent-mindedly and incidentally evil.

From my book "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited":

"As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil - they lack the intention to cause harm (mens rea). As Millon notes, certain narcissists 'incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt.' (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000). Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of others. Their abusive conduct is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's."

Psychopaths really do not need other people while narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply (the admiration, attention, and envy of others).

Millon and Davis (supra) add (p. 299-300):

"When the egocentricity, lack of empathy, and sense of superiority of the narcissist cross-fertilize with the impulsivity, deceitfulness, and criminal tendencies of the antisocial, the result is a psychopath, an individual who seeks the gratification of selfish impulses through any means without empathy or remorse."

More about co-morbidity and dual diagnosis here:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq82.html

The copyright of the article Narcissist vs. Psychopath in Personality Disorders is owned by Sam Vaknin. Permission to republish Narcissist vs. Psychopath in print or online must be granted by the author in writing.

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May 4, 2006 6:21 AM

Patricia Stevens :

Hi! I discovered what narcissism was this past fall. My husband had such bizzare behavior that I thought he had a brain tumor. Then I discovered he is a narcssist.
I feel I am in a terrible mess. I have 2 sons ages 7 and 10 and we are living in hell. Especially me because the boys don't see their father as the monster he is. He has been physically abusive (he twisted my breast during an argument) mostly emotionally abusive. I have been in counseling for 3 years just trying to deal with him and have been on antidepressants for 4 years. I know I should leave him but it comes down to losing most all that I have and having to share custody of the children. I feel I can protect the boys more living with them daily.
I was ARRESTED 4 weeks ago for domestic violence because I pinched my husband in the thigh and the police had to take someone. He lied to the police and told them I squeezed his testicles and caused extreme pain. I did not touch his testicles. This is what he is capable of. My previous criminal record consists of 2 speeding tickets in 30 years. I was not convicted of DV judge reduced charges to disorderly conduct. Which can be exponged in 1 year. I am so humiliated and shamed.
I found his underwear under his carseat with "body fluids" on them. It is like he has been living a secret life, of course it is all my fault.
Please help me have the courage to do what I know I must do, divorce him. We have been married for 10 years and have been together for 14. We are in marriage counseling but he is not the one with the problem (in his opinion). Thank you.

May 5, 2006 8:42 AM

Patricia Stevens :

Thank you Sam. Your information is very informative.

May 25, 2006 10:48 AM

sandy metter :

Hi Toothfairy,

My heart goes out to you. I just divorced my N after 14 yrs. I was like you...didn't have a clue what was going on, just new something wasn't right. I am so sorry about you DV experience. My suggestion to you is, immediately file for an Order of Protection. You can include the kids in it too. It will get him out of the house and keep him away from you, and/or the kids. He will not be allowed to contact you in any way, shape or form. He will still have to support you (you will probably want an attorney for this part), and the Order will remain in effect for one year. That will give you time to clear your head and THINK! I also feel if counseling hasn't helped in 3 years, it's time to either get a new counselor, or move on. Yes...with 2 children it's hard, but, if you stay, what kind of an example are you setting for them? It's terribly dysfunctional, and if you have a daughter, you will be teaching her that this is how women should be treated. My husband was ordered from the house last July, and despite the malicious divorce he purposely put me through, I have been happier and calmer than I had been for a long time. I can say the same for our 13 yr. old daughter, as she no longer has to worry about the next explosion. Living off-balance is no way to live. Please talk to a Family Law Attorney, (many times the consultation is free), or seek advice from legal aide, where there may be no charges for any of the services. Don't stick around waiting for him to change...he won't!!

May 26, 2006 4:42 AM

basildabbers36 :

My husband sounds in many ways like yours - we have been married for 25 years. He is very loving when we are alone - there is a lovely side to him. He is a good provider - we live in a lovely house and the children are denied nothing - although he can be mean - he will buy them a £6,000 horse without blinking and yet will be very mean with a pound. On holidays he restricts there spending money - any example - He gave them £100 each pocket money when we went to Cyprus - a year later when we went to Egypt - he gave them £50 each - why - because £50 goes further in Egypt - the children were very upset and he makes them pay for all but food and excursions with their money - ie. if they want to jetski - they must pay for it and so they end up not being able to do what they want. I myself believe that children should not be spoilt but I also feel that on holiday it is different and, if you can afford it - and he can - they should be able to spend freely and enjoy themselves - we only have one holiday a year for two weeks - my son who has ADHD couldn't deal with the unfairness at all and has not really spoken to his father since and that was two years ago.
He is loyal and has never given me a moment to doubt him - he spends all of his free time at home and will spend his entire life doing DIY and fixing our cars. He is obsessed with money and uses it to control me. When I told him it was unfair to dock their money just because Egypt is cheaper - he said what he always does "oh are you paying then - when you go to work and start contributing so that I can retire - then you can give them the money can't you - you can start supporting me for a change - I work my butt off to provide for you all and you haven't worked for years". The reason I haven't worked for years is because I have brought up 3 children, numerous pets, ran a large house, looked after the girl's ponies and escorted them to horse shows - plus acted like a taxi service - he never ever picks them up! He will see me stressed to the heavens and still not offer to pick one of them up or drop them off. He is a good father as long as he is given no problems to deal with - he can't deal with problems - his reaction to a problem is to blame me or somebody else - it is never his fault. We have been together 30 years and he has never apologized to me and has probably made as many cups of tea. He doesn't believe in depression or mental illness - it is all in their heads.
My son has ADHD but my hus

Jun 6, 2006 8:24 AM

ghulkman :

Dear "Basil" .....
You have quite "rambled" on & on.
Assuming your are CORRECT (Your husband NPD).
You have "held-on" for WAY TOO LONG.
You also might want to get into counseling
just for YOURSELF to see what's in YOUR personality that has caused you to stay in this
"relationship" SO LONG ..... much to the
detriment of YOU & your children.
You MUST learn more about YOURSELF .... and what
is wrong with YOU.
All this comes from EMPATHY & LOVE and the best
of intentions in trying to HELP YOU.

"Hulk"

Oct 17, 2006 10:31 AM

ghulkman :

Hey "Tooth" ...
You are in a rotten situation and right now there seems like there is NO WHERE to turn.
Your "N" will "Project" his poor behaviour onto YOU in counseling .... so marriage counseling (in your case) will be a WASTE of time.
Please CONTINUE with your PERSONAL COUNSELING and make sure you tell your counselor that you suspect your Husband is (indeed) a MENTALLY ILL person.
Keep a daily DIARY as to what is going on with HIM in your relationship.
Hire a Private "Eye" (if you must) ... so you can "Catch Him" at something which will work to your "Favor" when the Divorce EVENTUALLY takes place. Get the
"Firepower" you need to get SOLE CUSTODY of the boys when the time comes.
Try to start WORKING (even just "Part Time" or from the home) to get "Back" into the work force & "Hone Your Skills" for the eventual return to Full-Time work
once you GET the boys AWAY from him.
Enlist the HELP & SUPPORT of ANYONE (Be it family, friends, co-workers or whatever) to "Make your Escape".
Keep us posted & best of luck on your
"Journey" .....

"Hulk"

Nov 7, 2006 5:09 PM

Roberta Stone :

Today, my NH and I went to our first couples counseling due to problems in our marriage that, to me, relate to all of the symptoms I've read on Sam's site about narcissist. Both my husband and I met individually with the counseler first before sitting down together. I felt comfortable in sharing with this man that my husband had narcissistic characteristics. He even agreed with me on a few that he had noticed when he first met my husband. I was so excited!!! I thanked him over and over for understanding. I was actually looking forward to going into therapy (this is our 3rd attempt with a new counselor)with someone who "got it". When we arrived today he asked us what we wanted to talk about. My husband went first. Using his very best voice and personality and a vivid description of what had occured between us the day before. I sat there dumbfounded because he (NH) put words in my mouth that I didn't say, accused me of baiting him to make him angry, told the therapist how hard he had tried to get me to understand and my reaction to all of his "work" was me becoming "very angry". I told the therapist that I didn't say the things he said I did. They both looked at me like I was nuts. It went downhill from there. The therapist asked my husband to "apologize" because of his misinterpretation of what I said. NH looked at me with pure hate and said "I'm sorry". Not one ounce of sincerity. The therapist asked me to explain my side of the story. I got emotional and upset because of all the crap that wasn't being said there. All the past hurts, mean words, put downs etc. Therapist looks at me and says "he said he was sorry"!!!! The guy hardly acknowledged me after that. He would look at my husband and they would talk. At the end therapist asked what our parting thoughts were. NH said "I'm overwhelmed". Therapist shoots a look at me and says "me too" and they share a good laugh together. What happened in there? I thought the guy would at least take into consideration what I told him. I was the "bad guy" throughout the entire 2 hour session. I finally stopped trying to make my point. I just sat there and smiled. It was horrible. I'm starting to believe there really is something wrong with me. That I'm perceiving a man who is perfect for a narcissist. I doubt every word I say. I doubt any discussion I have with NH and started to write things down so they wouldn't "change" later. I got chastised for that today too.

I'm scared that I'm losing it. What is going on? Has

Nov 9, 2006 10:41 AM

Tammy Chamber :

Yes--I totally can understand where you are at--but hang in there and keep going. In our experience it took a few sessions before the counselor got the picture. Plan carefully--be in control in the sessions--bring up topics and issues that he will react with his N side--usually raging. Force him to demonstrate his reactions. If he has twisted an issue have all the facts in front of you and confront him with the truth--this really shows the truth and the N side of them. They are great at twisting stories to make you look like the bad guy but have the facts and the real story in black and white--don't back down stand firm and to the point --let the C do the rest. Everytime she got painted in the corner she would rage and try to walk out and the C would have to say no--sit down and get the conversation back to under control and then she would do it again.
Be strong and know it is not you --right now you are vunerable and he is taking advantage of that. It is very hard but plan you next visit carefully --set the adgenda to what you need unravel and be in control. When he twist--insist on untwisting, show his faults and watch his true colors come shinning thru! Good luck and plz--stay strong it does work!!!

Nov 9, 2006 10:48 AM

ghulkman :

Hey "C429" ....

This is "Classic" N beahviour in session.
IF it's just a Marriage Counselor NOT schooled in Personality Disorders ....
You're "wasting your Time & Money" ...
like I did with my counseling sessions with BPD-EX wife.
I FINALLY told the counselor after only
4 (four) sessions that this was a "waste
of ALL our time" and concluded that divorce was the NEXT Step .....
I was totally "Thru" with trying to reconcile with her after that.....
Of course .... at THAT time I didn't realize she was Mentally DISORDERED...

"Hulk"

Nov 10, 2006 6:48 AM

Tammy Chamber :

I should of spelled that out as well we are with a PHD!

Nov 10, 2006 1:53 PM

Victoria T. Hill :

Hi basil,

I agree with hulk, and it seems you would benefit a great deal from counseling. . . have you tried it or would you consider it? You have so much on your hands (your phrase "I do admit to being a little scared of him - I don't know why, he has never laid a finger on me - but I do feel that he lacks humanity" was VERY sad, very telling. . .). On the other hand, and I say this with the utmost respect and compassion, it seems you are very unsure as to what you need and want and/or how to bring about any change to your situation (if, in fact, you WANT change--because it's a very frightening thing sometimes. . .). Your husband obviously either cannot or will not love you as you want to be loved. You have some decisions to make, and I hope you will find someone to help walk you through the process. I wish you the very best!

Victoria214

Nov 13, 2006 7:42 AM

cheryl :

curious429, I read your post and I was in the same situation in the past year. I was with my ex-husband for almost 10 years. I knew in the last 5 years that he was a narcissist. It's funny as he always told me his ex-wife was a narcissist. Now I never met the woman so I really cannot say but I do know that he was a narcissist. I had started to emotionally detached from him once I knew what I was seeing in him. I knew this was the only way I could free myself from this man. It was very dangerous towards the end as he no longer had my time, feelings, love, and I would not even go out in public with him anymore. He got very angry and emotional. I had ask for us to go to counseling 4 or 5 years prior when I saw problems with our relationship not that they were not there from the start. I made many excuses for him and why I should stay with him. I even thought it was me in the beginning. I took the blame for all that was wrong in life for him. Now almost 10 years later when I finally was emotionally and physically detached from him meaing our lives only consisted that we lived in the same house but I really had nothing to do with him he then decides to do the counseling thing. I made the choice not to. For many reasons first I no longer felt the need as I was not trying to save this marriage to this emotionally selfish and dangerous man. Second I told the counselor when she called me (the counselor he chose) let me add when he had a counselor for the past marriage it was also a woman. I told this counselor that I made a choice not to go for many reason... I was honest that he was a man who lied daily and I could not trust him, he was emotionally abusive and had become physically agressive, I had no intrest in saving this marriage, I could not feel safe with him and I had spent the last part of this marriage healing all the emotional wounds that this man inflicted upon me. I was not willing to sit in a room with this man and have him lie again. This would be like opening old wounds and pouring salt into them. I told her I had just become a whole person again and started to feel good about myself. I felt strong and I was not going to let this man take my self esteem away again. He took it the first time and I was not willing to give it away this time. I knew better now. My point is I knew his character and how he could charm the pants off of anyone male or female. I knew he would go in and lie once again. He was never honest with himself much less me who could ex

Nov 13, 2006 9:41 AM

ghulkman :

Hey Victoria ....
Your post is "Right ON" and eloquently stated. At least you're OUT of the marriage, which is an IMPORTANT first and
MAJOR step.
Now, you can work on yourself and regain your confidence, sanity, and dignity ....
which I'm quite sure you are doing.
You sound like a remarkable person....

"Hulk"

Dec 30, 2006 5:51 PM

John Doe :

Most counselors have little understanding of NPD. I went for one session to discuss my sister in-law and educated my doctor who knew far less than me. He thought stalker by proxy was completely impossible. Little does he know that her "friends" only existed so that she can be inter-personally exploitive.

V

Oct 2, 2007 3:38 PM

kathryn :

In case you did not know, narcissists have a way with even the smartest of therapists.They love to play games and turn it around on you to make you look like the "Evil One".They love it! It's like a pretend "fantasy game" for them. All attempts at going to a therapist are empty wastes of time and money. You say you went in the therapist agreed and you came out , your husband went in and you wind up looking like a pathetic dramatic witch. Yep, classic.Happens all the time. Why don't you go INVEST your money into something more of "VALUE" ,like a pretty red dress, that would be nice.Huh? And then go to your lawyers office and get the divorce papers. Because this man or "thing" will waste even more of your life sucking the blood outa ya.He will emotionally , mentally, and possibly physically kill your soul and leave you with nothing! No dignity,no self worth of any kind, no money,YOU NAME IT , THE "thing" will rape it from you.Remember he works only for the Devil! The devil works through him to get to you.I know this sounds crazy , but anyone who has been with a N , Knows what im talkin about. Find you a good M A N , and move on.

Oct 10, 2007 7:28 PM

Heather :

My husband is highly paranoid and it affects every area of his life. He gets a good job and the boss is "testing" him and he has to "figure it out". Everything is a big drama. Has very few friends and has made up reasons not to trust me when I'v never given him reason. He was diagnosed Personality Disorder NOS. And put on Depakote but it has not helped. Can this be fixed or should I leave. IN DEBT BAD b/c of him.

Oct 11, 2007 12:21 AM

julie :

Hi there

I would never like to say "leave" to anyone without knowing a whole lot more about their relationship nor is it my place to do that. However, it sounds like you feel fairly desparate and probably confused and thats very telling.

I would also say that people diagnosed with personality disorders can be dangerous in many ways. You could end up in trouble with the law as a result of his actions, financially, for example. He may become violent as a result of the paranoia and lack of trust, who knows.

All I can say is that if you stay with him you will likely have an extremely rocky road and a lot of distress. What seems to be clear when you read up on all these conditions is that they dont often change, with borderlines there's more chance but they have to be dedicated to it as far as I know. You have to decide for yourself whether you are prepared to go through all that or whether you are ready to walk away. I hope i'm making sense. Try reading the other posts and articles on the site to see if you can gain more insight into your husband's condition or talk to a professional to get some real advice.

Best of luck

Joolz

Oct 18, 2007 4:31 AM

gretchen pinkava :

i have been to two marriage counselors with my husband, both female. i would address an incident occurring the day before, and the counselor, after my husband called 'not fair', told me i was acting immaturely and to 'calm down'. i was calm, but feeling hurt. my husband put on the charm, arrived in uniform, of course, and i sat there the rest of the time feeling very confused. she also said, when i expressed my fear of him that' if he hasn't hit you by now, he probably won't'. hmmmm. the other woman wasn't much better, seeming to allow him to talk what might have been the entire session if i hadn't interjected, again feeling like i had no right to be there. i need to get out. it's going to take guts though, and i need to LOSE THE GUILT!! take care girl

Oct 18, 2007 6:24 AM

julie :

Hi there

This all sounds very typical to be honest. This is a generalisation and I dont mean any disrespect to good counsellors. I dont honestly think that counsellors have enough experience with this type of person. Sometimes they seem downright ignorant, others just dont know what to do. It seems that they are supposed to be objective and impartial but they can fall for the same old charm that everybody else does.

The point is though that if you have attended counselling to sort out your problems and he is denying the problems and working on making it all look like your fault, you are wasting your time. Does this counsellor know he has a personality disorder? If she/they do, they should know more about it and know better than to start attacking you. And who is to say that he wont attack you, how could she know. I was in a relationship for 18 yrs with an N, he never punched me so I felt that he wasnt violent. I was wrong though because he used to threaten violence, which I believe is just as bad because it works on your submission, you become afraid and then they tell you you're paranoid because they never hit you. I have to say that my N got so paranoid that he was convinced I had someone in the house and he once put a knife to my throat in bed. OK he didnt kill me, does that make it any better, I think not. He also forced sex on me again but this time bit my cheek, thats violent, the fact that it was well into the relationship makes no difference.

You can do it, you dont have to be afraid, make a plan, get away and stay away. Stay around people who love you and will protect you. The chances are that he probably wont try n hurt you but be prepared and protect yourself.

I still live in fear to this day, he promised me he would get me when I least expected it but I couldnt stay on that basis, not any longer. In the end, whats worse, living in their nightmare or taking a chance on living your life.

Look after yourself.

Joolz

Oct 19, 2007 9:07 AM

melissa chesmore :

I can also attest to the fact that counseling can often times leaving you feel worse. I begged my N to see a counselor, believing that it would help return things to how they were in the first 6months we dated, or for short interims thereafter. He refused and said that I should go alone, as I likely had postpartum depression. I did go on my own to five appointments. He promised to watch our two children before each one, only remembering that he had something to do, late the night before the appointment. I thus had to take both kids with me to all but one of the appointments.(My son sat in the playroom/he's 10, but my one yeaer old daughter obviously sat in the counselors room with me each time). My counselor, inadvertantly would try to point out the ways that I was protecting him and I was only starting to see the light when he agreed to go to a couples counselor that he chose(a female).

He monopolized the conversation, beginning with the opening statement that he was "in a rock band, worked as a booking agent for bands, and also worked 3 hours a day as a youth center director and would not change any of it for anyone" This was all in response to her question of what do you do for a living. When I told her that I worked full time as a nurse and was finishing a double masters degree, she looked at me like, you--you are in these programs? I was so frustrated, as I was the one working full time as he refused to work more than 3 hours per day, so that he could pursue his dream of being a famous rock star. Mind you this dream did not surface until 6months into our relationship when I somehow became his financial support system.

Throughout the intake he lied, stating that he never had innapropriate relationships with other women, did not have issues with drinking, always came home at night unless we were fighting because of someting I did...I had to very forcefully interject trying to defend myself. When I pointed out that he left his email open on my computer, showing many a email to other girls, asking them to call at various times when he wasn't home....he somehow turned it around on me saying that I was paranoid, and untrusting, and always spying. I tried to explain that I begged him to work with trust..asking him to answer the phone when he was around me and other girls would call, start having his cell phone bills sent to our house and not his parents, introduce me to some of these girls that were just friends, and start coming home at night. I trie

Oct 20, 2007 5:04 PM

julie :

Hi there
I'll keep this short hopefully. A lot of what I said on the last mail is what i've read about and experience with this time, seems like the norm with these people, impossible.
To be honest, my ex would never even consider counselling, no way, people knowing all your business, not in a million years. I was offered mediation when going through a custody war and I refused because I knew, from past experience, that it was a waste of time. I knew that if I sat there in a room with him, and especially if it was a woman, it would soon turn into him being a VICTIM of my fragile depressed existence. Lets be honest, as far as he was concerned he was the long suffering partner of a paranoid, bi-polar, lesbian (i'm not joking) who had done nothing but love me and tried, in vain, to make me happy - puke!! In reality - abusive (ambient, verbal, emotional, sexual and threatened violence), had already been proved to be emotionally abusive to the children, apparently that counts for nothing.
Its a stange phenomenon, nobody wants to believe it, they'd rather believe that you are nuts first. As for changing them, forget it, they are not likely to ever want to as they don't see that they are wrong.

Keep strong

Joolz

Oct 21, 2007 11:48 AM

melissa chesmore :

Thank you so much for your reply. It's so nice to have someone actually understand. You hit the nail on the head when you said that their only defense is that you are crazy. He had a female lawyer and a lot of time to prepare(charm her into believing that he is/was the best dad on earth). I had five business days ...I spent every waking minute pulling together hard cold facts(the bills that I paid the majority of, medical records which proved he was not the one taking care of her medical needs, phone records which showed that he was out at the bar, not coming home and thus missing many of her things..ect., ect...)He came in and said that I was emotionally unstable, because he was the best dad and partner but couldn't stand always being accused of things...(accused ie; I would often say hey, can we talk about this..I have to admit that his lawyer, had looks of shock on her face numerous times when proof was handed over many diff. times...she is the mother of young triplets and I honestly believe that she felt some empathy...however it didn't matter, the court commisioner didn't care...apparently unless you have a serious alcohol/drug problem that can be proved, or there's domestic abuse charges, ect. if one parent wants 50% they are going to get it...We have a child support hearing coming up in a few weeks...and it looks like because I am the one who works, and makes the money I will likely have to pay him child support so that he can continue to live at his parents and play in his band, working 3 hours a day. I will be talking with my lawyer Mon. but it's not looking good...again always the manipulator...he doesn't want our daughter for any other reason than that she is an extension of himself...I sometimes think that I should have just kept my mouth shut and stayed in the relationship..at least then my daughter was with me..I have to ask..with your children, was he good with them when they were young? He's good with her now, very loving, but inconsitant in his reliability if I was not at work..I am wondering if you think this will continue, or if once she becomes older,with her own opinions, ect. if he will likely treat her the way her treated me? Do you think thus far you chldren have escaped to unaffected?

Oct 22, 2007 5:34 AM

julie :

Hiya Melc33 again

I've been putting off answering this one, its a sore subject.

Let me just say that I admire your determination to try n stop your ex from having 50/50 custody. I think you've done everything that you can, on this one, it is out of your control, to an extent. What I would say is to keep collecting evidence, report any behaviour which is unacceptable, either to the Police or take it back to court if necessary. I have learnt one thing through this nightmare and that is that you are the only person who can fight for what is right. I had the attitude, same as you, that if I provide the evidence of his "emotional abuse" on the children (taped telephone conversations) that they would realise that I'm telling the truth, that I have real concerns about his ability to be a father at all. The judge said that it was emotional abuse but didnt do anything about it.
I needed for them to agree to only supervised contact, if at all.

Instead, he completely won over the child psychologist, a woman, along with his more articulate sister(she's a counsellor), to have her believe that I was the one being abusive. The psychologist never questioned this with me, simply wrote it like he'd written it himself. After it had all finished I realised that the whole system is ridiculous. It was perfectly obvious that I had been very fair with contact until it became obvious that he was using them as a way to get at me. He effectively put us in the middle of a war zone. Had I been stronger, I would never have allowed it to get as bad as it did.

I, like you, have wondered whether it was all worth it, you cannot think like that. You are behaving normally, nobody should have to remain in a relationship with someone like that. You didnt know this would happen. I honestly believe that my ex only wanted the lads to hurt me, its the ultimate revenge. Well he got them, when it got too dangerous for the lads to stay and they were starting to hate me.

I think in answer to your last question, I hope he wont do that. Hopefully, he may not be as hardcore as mine was. I'll be honest, I was reluctant to tell you all this because I dont want you to feel worse than you already do. I wondered whether it would be kinder not to tell you but I couldnt because I know that when I realised what had happened it was all too late and wished I had been more persistent and to an extent taken the law into my own hands (just moved far away from him or something). I was too forgiving, f

Oct 22, 2007 8:25 AM

melissa chesmore :

Thank you so much for your information. I appreciate the hesitation as well but I know in my heart what's what already. I just need to prepare myself for what could be..as at times it can be hard when you are in the middle of it all to really identify what it is that is going on..so any foreshadowing of the possibilities will only help.

Again thank you and I hope today is a good one for you

Oct 22, 2007 1:12 PM

ghulkman :

Hey "33" and all the previous posters on this discussion.....

I have enjoyed reading ALL of your posts and would like to offer the following suggestions.

1) You can't change an "N" ..... nor should you even try. IF you can "Endure" the relationship because of the kids, financial concerns or whatever..... BUYER BEWARE. You're going to have a VERY ROUGH GO. It's just depends on HOW MUCH you are willing to endure for whatvere "Payoff" there may be.

2) "N's" (& BPD's, too) will CHARM, MANIPULATE & FOOL even the BEST of therapists ... leaving you PAYING THE BILL and in most cases .... LOOKING & FEELING like an IDIOT. Don't count on therapy to work, IF you're lucky enough to get them to a terapist in the first place.

3) "N's" ( BPD's too) are always SMARTER & BETTER than you are (at least from their perspective). They will always be RIGHT,
you seldom (if ever) will be.

4) They (N's & BPD's) are Masters of Control, Deceit, Lies & Manipulation ....... which is why they are disordered to begin with.

5) Share you stories & thoughts with Mentally "Non-Disordered"
family & friends. There's really not much they can do but to at least "Try" & understand your dilemna & at least offer support & kindness, which really is all you can hope for.

6) For the sake of your OWN financial well-being and possibly that of others ..... NEVER "loan" or "give" money to an "N" or
a BPD for ANY REASON, as it is a "Bottomless Pit" and you'll NEVER see that money again.

Good Luck & Best to All Here .....

"Hulk"

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